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Nanron LOUM wrote:

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The bottom line is:
Someone has to flip burgers at Burger King.
Someone has to clean the floors at the Empire State Building.
Someone has to clean the urinals at Soldier Field.

My point is that those that don't have a high skill in a "high paying field" can still have employment elsewhere.

And my point is that a lot of folks don't have a high skill precisely because they weren't given one, or weren't given a real opportunity to learn one, and in some cases were outright denied one.

Yes, some people have to do the yuck jobs. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we should be callous about whom we stick in those positions.

Part of the dream of social equality involves acknowledging that people born into bad situations do not have the same or equal opportunity as those born into good situations. They have more disadvantages hindering their success, which is grossly unfair, and therefore the situation clearly is not equal. Simply saying "TL--here's a mop" to that is cruel and heartless. (And it also means that you could be spiting yourself, by keeping awesome-potential folks out of positions where they could do more good, overall.)

That said, most government attempts to do anything about it have also been dumb and financially reckless.

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amaranthdru wrote:

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BEAST: Plenty of people are born into bad situations... all across the nation and from every ethnicity... and still have risen above their surroundings to become something greater. Will vs. Obstacle.

I agree with you, there. In general, what you said there is true.

But you lost me, here:

Equally, across the nation people have the same chances to succeed on their own merits.

I have to call "bull" on that. People do not have the same or equal chances to succeed all across the nation. Clearly, some parts of the nation show greater financial success than others. Some places are more racist than others. Some are more elitist than others. Some are more old-fashioned and have stubborn people in the key leadership positions who hold the masses back.

Those who can, try to move to better places to live and work, rather than staying where there is less opportunity for advancement and growth. That right there goes to show you that people don't have equal opportunity all over the nation.

Sure some people are born into money as well, but rarely succeed on their own because of a pampered and sheltered upbringing stunting their work ethics.

While those spoiled brats might eventually run into trouble after awhile, at least they were afforded the unequal gift of all that pampering and shelter, first. But those born into bad situations had the double-whammy hardship of struggling while growing up and entering into the job market lacking the tools necessary for success. The two situations do not cancel each other out. They're not equal.

It all boils down to character, not social/economic status that defines one's ability to succeed. Definitely not who has the perceived advantages of money or hardship.

I disagree. You make the mistakes of hyperbole and oversimplification when you say that it "all boils down to" this or that.

You can be poor but good and never be given the opportunity to do anything more than a job that will keep you poor. You will die a good, but poor, man.

You can ask for consideration (raise, increased responsibility, transfer, a chance to try something new, etc.) and be turned away as a lazy freeloader or uppity dreamer, despite your true character.

You can see opportunities given to others instead of you because you are "too nice of a guy".

You might get fed up with a pattern of insult and strive to prove them wrong by being the best little grunt worker you can possibly be, while inwardly becoming jaded and cynical as you continue to endure those same insults, because a person can only take so much. A cavity of rot and decay can take root in your soul because of the extra crap that you've faced in life, even though you yourself are fundamentally a good person.

You can civilly wait for the right moment to seize the day and take advantage of a rare opportunity that finally presents itself--only to find out that you are actually years or even decades behind the curve, through no fault of your own.

And yes, you might find a way to succeed even after all that.

But you'd better not ever call that a life of equality or equal opportunity, when it's all said and done.

King's vision of equality was not one in which a Black man would consider himself equal because he got to sit in the back of the same bus as a bunch of White men. King wouldn't call it equal when that Black man had to wait till all the White men got off the bus to go to their jobs before he could depart-- just to be late to clock in, written up as having poor discipline, and being lectured to try harder than the White men to get there early.

It's not equal when you tell someone who endures more hardship that he only has to try harder, or else he lacks character.

The philosophy of "separate but equal" eventually got discarded because, no matter the theory, the actual practice of keeping people separate almost always leads to unequal apportionment of resources/rewards. But that philosophy was nevertheless embraced and defended by our nation for decades as legitimate before it finally was thrown out.

We should be careful not to be too smug about our nation's accomplishments toward the cause of equality thus far, lest we make the same mistake as our segregationist forefathers. Rest not on our laurels. Never settle. Embrace the Total Quality Management plank of "Continuous Improvement" in all that we do. Keep fighting the good fight.

And have the guts to admit that the fight is still going on. There is still a need.